Transcript
Please note transcripts are generated by arifiical intelligence so may not be 100% accurate.
“SPEAKERS
Catie Friend, Elisabet Barnes
Catie Friend 00:02
Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries, and how they keep healthy, happy unsane. Today I'm chatting to Elizabeth Barnes, former professional ultra runner and amongst other things, too time winner of the gruelling marathon descibe, she has now turned her hand to sexology and couples therapy. And we will be chatting all about her journey into ultra running the hitting the wall physically overloading herself, and then we're going to be talking about sex, basically, and how we can have better sex, how we can have better relationships. And in particular, we're going to be talking about how women can take control of their desires of their feelings about their body, and really get what they want from sex and relationships. Hi, Elizabeth, how are you? Thank you so much for joining me today on chatting to a friend,
Elisabet Barnes 01:06
I get the thank you so much for inviting me. Super excited to talk to you.
Catie Friend 01:12
Yeah, it's very exciting. I want to touch on some lots of different topics. Obviously, the The purpose of this podcast is to talk to women about their journeys, their challenges, their self care, and sort of friendship and community. And I just want to do a little bit of background on you, we've had quite the change of career over the years background in management consultancy after a degree in engineering, and then on to being a professional ultra running well, a bit of a bit of royalty. So I know that to be true. And now a sex and relationship therapist. When I first read through sort of fairly disparate careers, I thought that you were someone who had always followed their passions, but not according to your own website that says you didn't really start following your passions until about 2010.
Elisabet Barnes 02:02
Can you talk to us about that? Yeah. Yeah, no. So. So what happened was I, you know, I had a very successful career in consulting, and I was working in London, and I was working long hours as you do, and things were going well, and I was very much focused on the next promotion, because that's what you kind of get drilled into thinking about and, and, and then one day in February 2010, my father passed away. And it was, it was all very, very sudden and unexpected. And, and that just made me think about life. No, because I think when something like that happens to you, whether it's someone close to you passing away, or someone getting terminal illness, or you know, something similar, it prompts you to reflect and to question things and the meaning of life. And so I went through a process of about maybe six months, something like that, trying to figure out what to do with my life. Because I realised that I wasn't entirely happy that probably my choices have had been more maybe to do with what other people expected of me, rather than something I actually really wanted to do.
Catie Friend 03:33
That is a recurring theme I find in many women, certainly around my age, that you sort of make up these expectations, or you don't they are actual expectations and find yourself on a path that you weren't entirely convinced that you should have been on.
Elisabet Barnes 03:50
Yes, yeah, exactly. That in a way, I came from a quite a conservative upbringing. And I think my, my parents had certain expectations in terms of education, you know, what I should, what I should be doing what I should be working with, and other people around, you kind of have these expectations that, you know, you should form a family and, you know, do this and do that. And it's easy to do, I think to just fall into that, really, without thinking too much about it, you know, it becomes it's just that the societal norms, like become the right thing to do, even if maybe they're not know if that makes sense.
Catie Friend 04:31
Absolutely. It absolutely does make sense. And so you were already someone who ran I mean, you had already run marathons and so on. You didn't just suddenly leap into being an ultra runner.
Elisabet Barnes 04:42
No, I started running. I mean, I have always done sports. I come from a kind of outdoor family and we have a history of some successful athletes in my family. And so it was a natural thing for me to be active from a very young age and then I started Running in my teens, done some other sports before that I ran my first marathon in 2002. And they actually, I really did enjoy that. And they enjoyed the process of training for it. And I realised that I was quite good at the endurance side and running those long distances. And so it's interesting now we're looking back at it actually, with what they have achieved since then. But you know, when you take on your first marathon, it's seems like such a huge thing. And, and it was, it really was no, I was very proud of myself when I had done it. And he just gave me this taste for more. So I kept running marathons. And I had done quite a few by the time my father passed away, and that kind of happened. And that's when I decided that I would eventually decided that I would venture into ultra running.
Catie Friend 05:52
And in terms of we were talking about, you know, the expectations and a fairly conservative upbringing, how was that viewed amongst your circle of friends or your community, your family at that time to sort of give up the successful career and management consultancy? To put your hat in the ring? Being an ultra runner?
Elisabet Barnes 06:11
Yeah, that's an interesting question, I see that what happened was that I, I grew up in Sweden, and the Swedish culture is a little bit similar to Norway, where I live now that there are differences as well. But But anyway, it's it's sort of this kind of socialistic, sort of culture where, you know, you, everyone should be the same and, and I sort of noticed that when I studied, and when I joined, consulting firm in Sweden, after uni, that everyone pretty much for the same, you know, you everybody came from one out of three universities, pretty much very similar background, very, very similar sort of status and education and, and interests. And there were certain things that, you know, you, you kind of should be doing, and you should have a preferably, you know, live in this place, and have a summer house, they're there or, you know, go on holiday to these in these different places, and everyone were very similar. And then I moved to the UK, and I started to work in London for the same company. And that was very refreshing in that sense, because there was so much more diversity, and people from many different backgrounds. So actually, I found it more open, in that sense, less judgmental, and more like, I could be my self. And when I eventually decided to focus more on running, because this is a gradual process, you know, you don't just resign one day and live from running the next right, it doesn't really work like that. I actually had a lot of support. And you know, my boss at the time was really great. And he supported me part time. And so I actually, I didn't feel like that was maybe a particularly sort of controversial thing to do, or that I didn't have support for it. In that sense. Although, of course, there were people who questioned it and who maybe you don't know, maybe not so much question it. But I sensed that there were people who were envious in a sense, and that maybe they also had dreams that they wanted to pursue, but they preferred to take the safe option.
Catie Friend 08:41
Yes, I do. It was actually is one of the questions I wanted to ask you, because obviously, a lot of what you have done over the years is change management, helping people with their running and know their relationships. And so change is a big feature in your career and your life. And I wondered, you know, sometimes I find Well, I have found over the years that people fear change, because it's easier to stick to what they know, you know, because it's easier, but even if it's not what they love, do you think that's one of the main drivers of that sort of envy that sort of, well, I can't do it, because I have kids I have, you know, I don't have the time I don't have the money. I don't have that sort of thing. I'll just stay where I am.
Elisabet Barnes 09:21
Yeah, I suppose probably probably one of them. I mean, we, we resist change naturally. I mean, that that's what that's just what we do. We don't like change. So we have to force ourselves into change, or get forced into it by some circumstances that just happen. And so my life would have possibly looked quite a bit different if my father hadn't died at that point. You know, it was just one of those things that forced me to think it's easy to become so comfortable and then of course with you know, You think we are people who or like humans need, we need support from others. That's how we are created, we're not created to exist in solitude, and to do everything by ourselves and to be alone, we seek support from a group and maybe that's why it becomes you become a bit like the people you surround yourself with. And, and you, you have this sort of culture in your community. And it's, you know, it's not very strange that people become kind of similar, I suppose. And then, you know, you get your into you do all of these things that are expected from you, and you come out from University with a big death, and then you, you know, you buy a house and you have a big mortgage, and then you have kids, and then you have a car, and then you sit there, and what are you supposed to do? You know, because many people get financially trapped. And so even if you want to do something else, it's actually quite difficult to see how that is going to work. Yeah,
Catie Friend 11:06
definitely. And in terms of what the change into ultra running, what did that bring you? You know, you had a good few years, from 2011 to 2017 seem to be your 18 sort of seem to be your, your big years. I mean, you You want some incredible things you want the marathon to sob twice the Oman desert race started in the Everest challenge, correct me if I'm wrong, but what did it give you that you hadn't had before,
Elisabet Barnes 11:35
it gave me an opportunity to travel to some amazing places that otherwise I wouldn't have gone to, I think, and what I also really, I have enjoyed about it is that let's say you do a race, like, you know, like the marathon the sob or something and you're in, you're out in the desert with like, 1000 other people, you know, you're all equal. No, everybody is there with a small little backpack with everything, they're going to survive on the 40 week, and we're in our running clothes. And you know, nobody really cares, you know, what you do for work, or what your religious views are, or how much money you have, or anything like that, you know, you're sort of stripped back down to the person and the human being you actually are, you know, without all of those other things. And I think that's very refreshing, because it makes you sort of realise what's, what's actually important in life, I think it's, I think it's quite grounding and humbling.
Catie Friend 12:47
And I think I've read, I've read somewhere before that you said, you had a great admiration always had great admiration for those towards the sort of two thirds to the back of the pack, who are often out for twice the amount of time the elite runners like yourself, are there for and they've had to, you know, train for this huge thing while juggling a full time job and families and so on.
Elisabet Barnes 13:09
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there are some difficult challenges that come with running at the front and winning races, but, but there are also some huge challenges that come with, you know, an enduring an event like that at the back. Which, in some ways, makes it I think, a lot more difficult than, and that's just so interesting, observing people's minds, and, and realising really makes some strong, you know, because I have seen people, people pull out from races feeling really sorry for themselves, but actually, there wasn't really anything wrong with them. And then I have seen others with like, you know, the most horrible blisters or injuries or, or illness or whatever, and they have just sort of powered on through. They have just gotten on with it. And it's amazing, you know, the power of the mind, that's sort of very interesting to, to observe, because I think it just becomes so much more tangible in, in an environment like that.
Catie Friend 14:22
Yeah, you very kindly gave me the advice when I entered the half marathon to sub in for to ensure that if I just, you know, hiked and walked in the mountains here in Switzerland, I would be absolutely fine. And I was, and I remember, on day two, we were given the roadbook for the day, and there was a huge amount of climbing, which is not like you get I don't think you get that in Morocco. But in fortune tours, huge amount of climbing, and I remember this one woman and by this stage, I had blisters everywhere. I'm terrible blister person. There was this woman, one woman fighting fit to one look at the the amount of vertical and said, I'm not doing it. And I just thought, What? And I could not, I could not get my head around the fact that you just wouldn't even go out. But you know what? You know, we don't know everybody's battling their own demons. Maybe she only maybe she lived somewhere that was completely flat? And I don't know. But you know, is you're absolutely right, the mindset and the challenges faced by people at the bag, I'll tell you something, there's a lot more chatter goes on at the bag, there's a lot more I can tell you that for free. experience a lot more sort of, all right, how are you doing? Should we stop and just take your blisters? Good. Okay. So but then you so you were very successful that and then in that, and then in 2018? You as you put it, you hit the wall? What do you attribute to that? What do you think caused that? And how are you? Or how have you recovered? Is it still an ongoing process?
Elisabet Barnes 16:07
So I say if I start with, you know, what, what led to that, it's, um, it's not that, like one thing happened. But I would say that I, I pushed myself harder for many years. And I don't mean, just with the running, I mean, just, I'm just like that as a person, when I do something, I like to do it. Well, I like to be very thorough. And even though I, I wouldn't call myself a perfectionist now, but I think other people would do that. And certainly, the past, so so. So you know, even when I was working, I could work. You know, I could work very long hours, I could survive in periods on very little sleep. And I think that when you are younger, you can do that. And your body doesn't say no, straightaway, you have reserves. And so you can you can sort of do that. But I I do remember that I did hit the wall sort of one time when I was working. And I had to have seven weeks holiday after that. And I slept through most of it. And then I was fine. But then what happened was I when I started to make these changes in my life, and I was running ultra marathons I was still working was a mix of full time and part time I switched a little bit in between, I was building up a business, which while two businesses and it was a lot of work. So I was doing that on the side. And then my my marriage collapsed. And so in towards the end of 2016. I was also going through separation. And so there was a there were a lot of things going on in 2015 and 2016 I had done. I think each of those years I did like, at least in 2016, I did five long multi stage of dry races that were quite extreme, you know, the 250 kilometre type races, and then I summon all of my energy and the focus to towards Martin the sabella in 2017 to go and win that, which I did. And afterwards, I felt very, very, very tired, like, very empty, very tired. And I think that going through that had taken a lot out of me the whole period leading up to that, but probably it culminated in that race. And then I suppose I never really bounced back from that. But I then went into a lot of work and still had the separation. And it all took a lot out of me and they think that I tried to do everything. I was like, Yeah, I can do this, you know, I can run this business by myself and I can, you know, I can still be a good runner and you know, blah, blah, blah. But then I just I think the body had just had enough on it was sort of just telling me to slow down and and then I think I didn't really listen to that and then just sort of Yeah, put a stop to it. So it was quite how it happened was was very interesting. It was very physical, actually. So I was doing this trail event. And so I was I was supposed to lead some some running groups. I actually, I actually had to abort the run. I couldn't I got to eight kilometres and I was like I can't run anymore. You know, like And so yeah, but it was like the body just stopped sort of functioning. And I, I realised that this is not what this is not working, but now I have to do something if I if I carry on, I'm just gonna die and I have to do something
Catie Friend 20:13
and what have you done to get just to relate I not the same but very similar at towards the end of last year had what somebody very aptly called the other day a reset, where I just I wasn't so much physical but a little bit more mental just hit the wall. And so I understand that there's just there's a build up a build up and you ignore it and you ignore it because you're you know, you're a hard worker, or you've got family or you've all of the above. So I totally it while I can't relate necessarily to pushing my body that hard, I had pushed myself to the point where there was just too much going on. So what what have you done to aid recovery? Because you know, that this, for me, it was quite drastic steps like I basically, I just said no to everything.
Elisabet Barnes 21:09
I cut
Catie Friend 21:10
that right down to the absolute bare minimum of looking after myself and the children and Graham, my husband to start with. Yeah, sort of things did you do?
Elisabet Barnes 21:22
Yeah. So So when this happened, I, I had met my, my current husband. And, and he was very, very supportive. So it was great, because I just felt like I had his shoulder to lean on. I wasn't on my own. And, and that helped a lot. But what I did, the first thing I did was I looked at my calendar, and I looked at the things that I had committed to particularly, particularly the races that I had lined up. And I just said to myself, I have to cancel these races. And so I did that. And I still had sponsors, then which so it's kind of hard. Yeah, I was gonna ask, yeah, when you make a living from running and you realise you can't run. And I'm not the only one in this situation, I have watched, you know, particularly female runners, I mean, they just falling like dominoes, this is not uncommon, but I so basically, I cancelled my I cancelled my races and said, like, my health is more important. And I, I had also tried for a while to sell my business. And I realised that now I really had to do that. So I created this quite a visual person and I sang a bit strange, but I, when I look at like time in terms of months in the year, I visualise it, like kind of a bit of a like a circle, it has some kind of a shape in my head. So I drew up this shape on a piece of paper and I put down like milestones and also the key I need to ship this by that time and that by that time, but it was it was not like, you know, oh, I need to you know, reach tactical reach tactical reach it this was about it was like that, but it was about offloading stuff. So it was like a plan for me to do less. Whereas normally, maybe you plan to do more, planning to do less. And so it was like, How can I do that? So I tried to make a plan to make that happen. And then I I read a lot about health and nutrition. And they came to the conclusion to go plant based and see if that will help. So that's what I did. And then my husband and I weren't we weren't married them. But we are now but anyway, we were able to borrow a friend's house in Morocco. And so we went to Morocco for a month. And, and I just tried to do as little as possible. So I slept a lot. And I bought local food and I cooked healthy food. And I was just trying to be kind to myself.
Catie Friend 24:22
And have you found since then, because I did very similar sadly, not a month in Morocco, but and then I sort of set myself the goal of saying, right 2020 is going to be a really calm year, I'm not going to set myself any massive sporting challenges. I'm not going to take on x y and Zed and as we know 2020 has turned out to be a little more different than we anticipate. Yeah, but and for me lockdown became a sort of an opportunity to do stuff and I you know I'm in some ways similar as in I like to be doing things I like projects. I like taking on things goals, whether it's You know, physical or mental or work or kids or whatever it might be. I have found and I, so I'm interested to know what you found. How does somebody like you, who is always busy, who always wants to have something going, how have you managed to maintain that kindness to yourself without leaping? From the, you know, into the next project and the next project?
Elisabet Barnes 25:21
Yeah, it's a difficult one in the beginning, and for quite a while it was sort of self regulating, because I was so tired that I simply couldn't. And so I just had to accept that. And they, and they sort of did. I think I just said to myself, okay, no, no projects. No, no plans. Of course, I was thinking that, eventually, I'm gonna have to do something because I have to make a living from something. Yeah. But luckily, I didn't have to dump into work. I was I was okay. Anyway, financially, so that I could, yeah, like, step off the gas, you know. So it's, it's difficult, but I think, I think this kind of self regulation with the tiredness, and that he just meant I really didn't have much appetite to do something. And I think it was almost just instinct. And so now, of course, I am a bit more busy again. Maybe the difference now is that I sleep a lot.
Catie Friend 26:30
Yeah. Do you notice the symptoms of of sort of maybe when you start pushing yourself too hard again? And you think, oh, I've seen this before?
Elisabet Barnes 26:39
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I have noticed that I was, you know, when, when when COVID hit, or before then I was training again. And I was supposed to run the marathon this year. And I had other races planned as well. So I had, I had three races planned for this year. Now I was I was back in training, and I was doing okay, but I was a bit concerned what would happen pushing my body so much again? And I felt in my I think I felt Yes, I just felt mentally that I wasn't, I wasn't entirely happy doing it anymore. I think I did it more because other people wanted me to do it.
Catie Friend 27:27
back into that old stuff.
Elisabet Barnes 27:28
Yeah. And I didn't see it, you know, I didn't see it. But but then someone when COVID hit, I just got some time to reflect on things. And I thought, well, actually, here's some, here's an opportunity. No, my races are getting cancelled, I don't have to run them. And maybe I should do something else. Maybe the time is right now to do something else.
Catie Friend 27:56
So and which is a very interesting, something else that I really want to come on to in two seconds. But first of all, before you we move off that subject before, you also mentioned that you sort of changed up your maybe your circle your community, people that perhaps were no longer serving you in your life, would that be a correct way of putting it?
Elisabet Barnes 28:16
Yeah, yes. Not not the same. Maybe just completely, you know, swapping circles or anything like that. But, but, but actually, just realising that there were maybe, you know, one or two relationships, that were not very healthy for me. And I think we all have that, you know, that we feel sometimes that, that there are people who maybe don't understand us who just drain, drain our energy. And, you know, maybe you try to make it work, but actually, I think sometimes this is what I have learned through life anyway, sometimes you you're better off just, you know, distancing yourself from those people and surrounding yourself with people who support you instead. And it's not always that easy, because, you know, you have people that that are in your life, and maybe you have to have some kind of relationship to them. But for me, I I just had to minimise the negative impact on myself. And so I I did that. And and then that made me feel better. Yeah.
Catie Friend 29:42
Good. I'm glad to hear that because that yes, as you say, it's a difficult choice, but sometimes an important one for our own well being, you know, I think of our community around here where we live in Switzerland, and how I you know, on the flip side, I probably would never have been involved in sports as I am now, if I hadn't been surrounded by such incredible role models and people who have very similar sort of outlook on that kind of thing. So it's about Yeah, choosing your your circle and what influences you and keeps you as you say, energised and not feeling drained. Hmm. So let us move on to the latest incarnation of Elizabeth Barnes, sex and relationship therapist. Now, I will be the first to admit that when I saw your Instagram feed start start to change. I was like, What on earth is going on here?
Elisabet Barnes 30:37
I don't think you were alone.
Catie Friend 30:40
Because one day, we're looking at Elisabet Barnes running doing you know, transgrancanaria, or pardon my mispronunciation, you know, or, you know, I doing workshops at la Santa in Marathi. And the next minute, we're seeing a picture of her very attractive bottom in a pair of lychee knickers with no explanation, and so, with you all that?
Elisabet Barnes 31:07
Yeah, no. So, um, yeah, I suppose those kind of focus, I think, started before I before I started to actually study to the therapy and the relationship and sex therapy. And actually, I mean, you know, they are sort of not connected in that sense, I suppose. But no, you know, what, I think, I don't know, I don't really know how to explain that one. But I, I think that what what has happened to me through this kind of process I've been through and, you know, meeting my husband and have been in a very, very supportive relationship and, and being more kind to myself, I think I have, I have felt a lot better about myself. And, and it's something that I have very much enjoyed. And I do follow, I do follow a number of accounts, on Instagram, with women that I think are very inspiring, and they can be women of all sorts and shapes of shapes and sizes. But I, I really love when women are not afraid to express themselves in whichever way they want, I love to look at, you know, beautiful curvy underwear models and whatever. And I think that in, maybe in today's society, like we're so we're so quick to judge people and, and I don't think that women, women, women carry a lot of shame around for all sorts of reasons and about a lot of things, but a lot of it has to do with our bodies, and our sexuality. And I, I really think that something needs to change. And so one thing I would like to do is just to, to kind of be there to be that sort of bolder person that, you know, is not afraid to show her balm in some nice underwear, you know, or whatever. And, and some people don't like that some people get offended. And some people love it and think it's inspiring. And I like to do it. And so that's kind of how, how that started. So I'm, I am sort of enjoying that. And I do it because I enjoyed and because I want to inspire people. And then then I started to study sexology and couples therapy. So then, of course, I started to post more about those kind of topics. And I have to admit, it was the most difficult decision, like what to do on social media was very difficult. They thought, should they keep this account just to running and start a separate one? Or, you know, what should I do? And then I kind of thought, Well, actually, I got some opinions on it as well. You know, people said, Oh, you have to you have to keep this separate, you know, the different audiences, you know, we shouldn't be offending people or things like that. But then I thought, well, you know, I'm at the end of the day, I am. I am who I am. I'd like to think that there are people in the running community also have sex. So I've thought to myself, why is the audience different anyway, like and why? Why can I not be myself and maybe some people will think that this is interesting, because perhaps otherwise they wouldn't have seen this. Maybe they wouldn't have followed accounts like that. Maybe. Maybe it wouldn't have been on their mind. And so I thought, I'm just gonna give this a go and see what happens and Maybe a social media strategist or someone would have told me to do something different? I don't know. But, you know, I, it was an interesting experiment. I've lost loads of followers. Yeah. Which I thought I would lose some. But I've lost a lot more than I thought, which I find interesting. And it's made me realise how much this conversation is needed because people have such a big problem with other people talking about sex. And at the same time, I've had a lot of encouragement, a lot of people messaged me and saying, it's great what you do. And I've had people come to me, who have followed me for running and they've said, Oh, I see you doing sex and relationship therapy. Actually, I have this problem. Maybe we can talk. Oh,
Catie Friend 35:45
wow. Fantastic.
Elisabet Barnes 35:47
And so, so so it's been good, as well. So overall, I would say it's been, it's been positive, but some people have probably, you know, spat their morning coffee out a few times.
Catie Friend 36:06
We all need to split our coffee occasionally.
Elisabet Barnes 36:11
But I like, you know, what I love to I sort of I love to provoke people as well. And and I, I think it's, it's necessary to do that. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you can't you can't have a voice about something, if you only wants to be liked. If all you do is for the purpose of being liked by other people, then I think there's something wrong with how you live your life, you know?
Catie Friend 36:39
Yeah, it's exhausting. Apart from anything else. Yeah, it's very sort of thing. Yeah, you can't, you can never know what other people are thinking or, you know, and so spending your life and I know, because I've spent large parts of my life worrying about what other people think. And I came to the conclusion that oh, you know, quite some time ago, no, thankfully that not everybody likes me. And I'm okay with that. Because I think if everyone liked me, I'd be a bit boring. Yeah. So. Um, yeah. So, and I think it is exhausting. As I say, just, you just can't know what other people are thinking. So you go around, assuming and then you change your behaviour because of something someone might or might not think. And you think, geez, I can't No, it's too It's too exhausting. Tell me, how is talking about sex having more sex, having the sex that you really want to have? How is? How is that a benefit to us? I mean, think it's probably clear, it makes us happier. But can you give us sort of scientific or, you know, physiological mental benefits of that?
Elisabet Barnes 37:39
Well, I mean, first of all, like having having sex, you know, being touched and having orgasms releases, a lot of you know, good female hormones in your body. And so it makes us feel happier and more relaxed. So, so that's, that's very good. I also think that for women in particular, I think it is, it's very empowering to be in charge of your pleasure, you know, to to claim it. Because women grow up with a lot of shame around sex. Maybe we don't even think about it. But you know, we're being told that if we like sex too much, or if we have many sex partners, then then we slots. You know, there is a lot more talk about men's masturbation and women's masturbation, you know, it's not something that you learn about in school, you know, sex education is, is about reproduction. It's not about pleasure. You know, most people don't even know the difference between a vagina and vulva or can point out the clicker is, you know, we know that there is a huge orgasm gap in terms of women orgasming, much less frequently in insects, the man do. And, you know, why is that? Why is it that we can't actually feel that we can own our bodies that it's okay to have pleasure that we can take responsibility for it and not place the responsibility on someone else for that, or don't, you know, not think that we deserve it or that it's shameful. And so I think actually, for a woman, having good sex, having fantastic orgasms, feeling like we deserve pleasure, and taking it, I think is very empowering. And I think it's very good for, you know, our self esteem and confidence and how we feel about our bodies in general. So I think it's something that if you can do that, it just enriches your life, and who you are and it sort of makes you like, glow. I mean, you can see a woman if she has good sex or not.
Catie Friend 39:52
I totally agree. I could not agree more. How would you how do you go about telling people say that have perhaps been married for a long time? Never been like that, even if they're not married, you know, even with different partners, that they've never taken that sort of control, or they're small steps that can be taken to getting more empowered in that way.
Elisabet Barnes 40:13
Yeah, I think I think there is maybe for everyone, it's kind of a different journey, because I think it depends what what lies behind your, your attitude to sex, your feelings about sex and your body? You know, it can be, yeah, I mean, it can be past trauma, or it can just be, you know, societal cultural norms, it can be religion, it can be that, you know, you haven't been in a particularly good relationship, you know, so it's, there are lots of things, but I think that there is so much material out there. Now. I mean, there, there are great books on this subject, there are YouTube videos, or podcasts, or inspiring social media accounts. So the information is actually out there. So it's about seeking it. And then it's, I think it's about connecting with your body, you know, and actually feeling good about your body, we have a tendency of pointing out our faults, you know, I have too much cellulite, my breasts are saggy or my vulva looks strange, or, you know, I don't know, there's like, all sorts of things. So I think starting to focus on positive things about yourself means that this is one thing, I mean, just stand there, look, look yourself in the mirror, and look at everything that's great about you and tell that to yourself out loud, while you look yourself in the eyes and do that every day. And you know, your perception of yourself is going to change, then don't feel ashamed about having pleasure, you know, masturbate, take responsibility for your own pleasure when you have sex with someone that's important.
Catie Friend 42:11
Yeah.
Elisabet Barnes 42:12
And maybe that's not so easy if that's not something you've done before. But I think that's also very important.
Catie Friend 42:19
Well, is it fairly big metaphor for life, especially for mums of my age, who are maybe coming out of the fog of motherhood, which is something I'm quite sort of big on, you know, and it's sort of, it's the, it's taking responsibility in general, for your own pleasure in life, you cannot rely on anybody else to make you happy. And it's something one of the things that was a huge revelation on revelation. But a realisation for me after I had my bit of a wobble last year, is that I can't expect other people to make me happy. It has to come from me. And that presumably, also translates as you say, into sex and masturbation and toys, and following toy Tuesday with great excitement, honestly. I'm glad. Because the thing is bed does toy Tuesday where she talks us through another sex toy, which we can all go out and enjoy. And talk to, just as we're talking about moms and women of my sort of age. I'm 47, though, so I'm heading Full Tilt into perimenopause. And then we'll come to menopause. And that itself presents a little bit of a challenge because libido is different. You suddenly your body is different. You're you it's a little bit like puberty in reverse, which nobody really talks about, like, ever. Huh? What what do you what do you sort of top tips for women at my kind of stage of life? The hormones and so on?
Elisabet Barnes 43:51
Oh, yes. I mean, I'm 43 and I'm, I'm, I think I'm coming into perimenopause. And I'm sort of, I've noticed some signs myself, and it's a little bit frustrating. I have seen I have seen a very good, very good doctor in London, who specialises in bioidentical hormone replacement. And that, that has helped me from the, from the hormonal side of things. It's been something that we can't ignore. I think it maybe becomes even more important to look after yourself in terms of looking at what you eat. I know I mean, for example, active women, we do a lot of sports. They need they need more more protein than before, for example, you know, we we lose lean muscle mass. And so it becomes more important to focus on getting the protein in on actually doing more heavy resistance training. Yes, and that's good. hormones good, you know, for metabolism. And,
Catie Friend 45:03
you know, also I think for feeling good about, you know, your body resisting some of those changes. Yeah. For the bone density and, and then inevitable or the inevitable sagging of your triceps.
Elisabet Barnes 45:16
Yeah, exactly. And, and in terms of that mean, for anyone who's listening and is an active woman of this age, I can really recommend Dr. Stacey Sims. And you can find her on on Instagram she is she has written a book because a few years ago, now she's written a book called a roar. And she has some other resources. And so so that's very good. I think. And then it's, I mean, look, from a diet perspective, there are so different supplements you can take, like, for example, adaptogens, like ashwagandha, for example, that I take some of those and I think it's been, it's been very helpful, it helps me to stay more more energised and to keep my mood a bit more, more even. So, but I think also, I don't know, I mean, what what would you say? So in your, a few years older, I mean, does it always have to do something with your, with your, with your attitude to, to life and to sex and to your body? And you know, what you decide is important?
Catie Friend 46:28
I think so I wrote a blog post about six weeks ago, two months ago about my body and how I genuinely one day just looked in the mirror and went, I love you. Because my Lord, I you know, it looks like any other middle aged woman's body, it's got saggy bits and droopy bits and you know, bits that are bits of cellulite, stretch marks. I've breastfed to children. You know, I was I've got huge scars on my legs from being born with dislocated hips. I've got wonky leg length difference. And I just thought to myself, do you know what this body is incredible. And the first time I realised that I mean, really, really realised it was when I finished the half marathon. And I, as you know, I was, well I'm still not a runner, I just learned to run to do that. And I was not brought up sporty, I didn't start doing sports, I was nearly 39 and I just looked at that my body blistered to all hell, but still going, and I could have kept going. And I felt amazing. And the attitude that was the exactly as you say, the attitude change was just look what my body did. And that the the advantage to starting sport at such a late age is that, you know, at 47 I'm not very fit at the moment, but I'm still getting stronger. I don't have any of the Oh, I can't do the things I did when I was 20 because I'm about 50 times fitter and healthier than I was when I was 20. And just hanging out for Friday night in the Student Union. And you know, I there's this attitude of, you know, my kids are big. And I've got so much I need to get on with I cannot be doing. I can't I haven't got time to be every time I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror going. Well, dear, you know, and if my if my triceps wobble, my bingo wings wobble when I'm brushing my teeth, well, I just need to do some more, go and do some more exercise. And I do when I feel like you know, I don't. I'm not hard on myself, physically. And as in, I don't judge my body anymore. And the thing that's been really important for me, really important because your body does change after you've had kids. It does change, you know, over the years with hormones with everything. So yeah, for me, definitely. It has been an attitude thing that I just think you know what? Got me this far. And I've got a hopefully another 40 odd years of adventures left in this body. I just need to look after it and love it.
Elisabet Barnes 49:08
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm like you I'm I think I'm stronger than I've ever been, you know, and does my body look the same? Like it did 20 years ago? Well, no, it doesn't. But actually, there's there are parts of it that I think are much better. And I think that comes that comes down to how you choose to, to look at it, actually. Yeah, no, I agree. And, and when it comes to also when it comes to sex and that I think just like the body changes through the course of life, I mean, so that's our sex life and and how the body functions in that respect and maybe what we what we like and what we don't like and returns On and and sometimes maybe you just have to explore and and try and find something new, you know that maybe you hadn't thought of before or
Catie Friend 50:10
exactly particularly? Yeah, particularly if you've been with a partner for a very long time that, you know, it's easy to fall into habits with sex as it is with anything else, especially, you know, if you're got young kids in the house, and it's not something you can devote a whole whole lot of time to. Yeah, you know, it's a quick here and there. You know, it's important, I think, to try and have the conversation where you say, huh,
Elisabet Barnes 50:36
yeah, remember, when
Catie Friend 50:37
we first met,
Elisabet Barnes 50:40
there's a, there's a very good therapist called Esther parral. And she's written a couple of books. And she talks about, you know, there that there is this sort of kind of conflict between, you know, being being a couple and you know, having been married for a long time, like in marriage, we, we sort of see, safety and security and, and, of course, we want that, and we need that for our relationship to work. But on the other hand, sex and attraction requires, you know, excitement, anticipation, more like opposites. And so it's like a challenge that when, you know, when you grow too close together, how can you still keep some separation? How can you make things exciting? And but I think it all, it all starts with, with with communication and conversation and being able to talk about these things, and how,
Catie Friend 51:40
in your experience of talking to clients? How often is, is it simply the case that people are just too afraid or ashamed or embarrassed or conditioned? Just not to talk about things?
Elisabet Barnes 51:54
Oh, it's extremely common. It's extremely common. So many people don't talk about sex.
Catie Friend 52:02
bizarrely, even with the person that they're closest to.
Elisabet Barnes 52:04
Yeah. And what's so interesting about that, I think, is that is that if you if you can do it, if you can talk about sex, then I think you can talk about almost everything.
Catie Friend 52:16
I want to ask you, you know, when I was growing up, or I don't hear it so much, no, but it was always the stereotype that men thought about same sex every three seconds or something. I can't remember what the actual stat was. And in your experience, is it absolute codswallop that men think about sex more than women? Or is just that women don't say that they think about sex very often?
Elisabet Barnes 52:39
Yeah, I do think that, that as women, we are kind of taught that we shouldn't think about sex, and these, you know, all of these norms that we talked about before. So I think there is probably something, something in that. I mean, I kind of maybe I just fall into the norm and say, I think that maybe men think a little bit more about sex than women. But I'm sure but I know that there are women who think a lot about sex.
Catie Friend 53:10
And so tell me, what do you what are your plans, you're gonna, you're still studying, and you're going to be qualifying soon.
Elisabet Barnes 53:16
So I'll be a certified sexologist in April, and then certified couples therapist, bit later next year. Amazing.
Catie Friend 53:28
So that's the plan for just now and COVID. dependent. Are there any running races to be had?
Elisabet Barnes 53:34
Um, I don't think I will do an erasing simply because I just don't think I want to put my my body through that. I would love to race again. But I would love to race just for fun, you know, be the chapter one. And I think I can do that. But I don't think I can do that just yet. Just I mean, I can but I think I would come into a race like it. Some people don't people don't understand it. They think you can when you think you because you won the races, you're going to win every race you enter it doesn't work like that. But I know that it's it's it's very difficult. Many female ultra runners struggle, because you have to push your body so hard. And there is always someone who is willing to go beyond what's healthy in the short term, because they don't think that it's going to harm them long term. They just don't think it's going to happen to them. Unfortunately, it is going to happen to them. So the problem is you're competing with those people and I know that my body can't take that. So I think I'm gonna, you know, they basically say to myself, no, I don't have to put myself through that. So long answer, but no, I don't think I will do any races soon. But I will do training camps, depending on what happens with COVID. And I still do running coaching So I mean, I very much enjoyed that. And I actually think that even though I mean, I think in the longer term, I will focus more on the sexology on the couples therapy, I would like to think that what I'm doing now is a great benefit to my coaching clients in running because, right, you know, running doesn't exist in a vacuum. You know, most people have relationships, they have families, and they have a lot of things to navigate. And when you train for an ultra marathon, it's a big effort, it takes a lot of time, takes a lot of energy. And so actually, you know, having someone who understands all of that, and you know, those other dynamics around it, I
Catie Friend 55:44
think, is useful. And that's very useful. Because when I remember when I remember you said right back at the beginning, when you train for your first marathon, and it was so huge, which it is for when you train for your first one, because I remember, right back at the beginning of our relationship, Graham, trained for London Marathon, and I thought he was training for hours. And then he went to triathlon, and then he went to Ironman, and then went to ultra running. I just kept thinking, Oh, we should just go back to training for a marathon because they know the hours involved, and the amount of energy that goes into preparing for such huge efforts is really hard on family life. Yeah. And it's something that we have really struggled with over the years, especially as I'm mostly a full time stay at home Mum, he would be away working and then come home, and then need to be out on a, you know, for six, seven hour bike ride. And, you know, that is no longer the case, necessarily, but it was really hard, really, really hard for him. And for me, Well, you know, and, and I can see how having that both of those as a background would be very useful for runners and their partners. Hmm. Because it's very, yeah, it's very demanding.
Elisabet Barnes 57:00
Yeah, it is. It's not as it's not as simple as just being given a plan and follow it. You know, it's not it
Catie Friend 57:06
isn't. And especially I would say, as a mum, who was trying to, you know, training for things there comes, you know, that sort of having to do it within the timeframes of school hours, or, you know, picking up from wherever and activities and trying to, you know, and sometimes it just follow the plan you like? Yeah, okay, so I'm in Switzerland. Well, the children are home for two hours at lunchtime. So you know, it's just, yeah. Anyway, so we can get hold of you. We can follow you on Instagram. Elizabeth Barnes and your website. Yeah. So
Elisabet Barnes 57:42
my, so I have two Instagram accounts. So I have Elizabeth Barnes and then without an H, and then I have ultra coach. nights actually ultra dot coach. I think so anyway, that's that's that's just for for those people who are interested in running and don't want to hear anything about sex. You can go there, you're safe. And then my website is Elizabeth barnes.com. Brilliant. Well, I'll
Catie Friend 58:11
put that in the show notes. Make sure the spelling is all correct. It has been it has been, as I hoped, an absolute an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I love the breadth of things that we talked about. And I hope that it has been interesting for you, too. And I look forward to hearing about the next steps and all the avenues that you follow.
Elisabet Barnes 58:32
Thank you. Thank you, Kate. It was a real, real pleasure. Really enjoyed this conversation. And, and I think it's fantastic that you've started this podcast. So I wish you all the best of luck with it.
Catie Friend 58:43
Thank you very much. We'll speak to you another time. Hopefully.”
